When They Just Can’t Win, Part 9 – Open Minded = Intolerant

I’ve been too busy to update the site for a while, but here’s yet another debate where the leftist involved ran out of arguments and had to reach for that block button.  What strikes me in this one was how I kept the tone matter-of-fact, and said repeatedly that I’d change my mind if someone just showed me evidence.  I even took the time to explain the difference between subjective experience vs objective reality (feelings vs facts), and used analogies I thought would be easy to understand.

As it turns out,I think they *did* understand… realized they had nothing to come back with, and, well, that’s what the block button is for.

So sit back and enjoy.

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Yes, what if…?

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Gulia Koroleva Imagine if Stalin and Hitler were aborted.

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Beverly Diehl Yes, happy thought there.

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Jodi Armstrong Van Oss At least those folks were given life. Aborted babies aren’t.

Beverly Diehl Every pregnancy doesn’t result in a live birth. Never has, never will.

And while I will grant the right of those who lost a pregnancy or suffered a stillbirth to call it a baby, scientifically, and morally, in most religions, aborting an embryo or fetus isn’t “killing a baby.”

It may be in yours. But we don’t live in a theocracy, at least, not yet.

Amanda Mirambell-Grice If it’s not your uterus, why are you so concerned about what is done with it? Are you personally interested in adopting children from foster care that are given up because the mother wasn’t ready? You seem to be so damn concerned about the “life” part, but are you concerned about those children getting fed, clothed, housed, educated, and taken care of medically? If you’re not, kindly shut the fuck up.

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Liz Sanger
Liz Sanger Banning abortion kills women.
Nancy Kellogg
Nancy Kellogg Oh, please. That’s just, no.

· Reply · Yesterday at 1:35pm  [And here’s where the fun begins!  I’m responding to the points in the original post.]

Athena Brown

Athena Brown 1. The cure for cancer isn’t in the mind of some “lucky winner” who just happens to have it placed there. Cancer will eventually be cured by incremental advancements by scientist living the world over. So this argument is already flawed. There are numerous arguments abortion, but this isn’t one of them.

2. The study concerning a “black sounding name” did not focus on colleges, and there is no data to suggest discrimination on that level. Moreover, the study being referenced used only ads found in newspapers, in only 2 cities, did not include *anything* other than a generic resume (no cover letter, follow up phone call, etc), and did not examine any other part of the job application process. Finally, we have affirmative action, at a time when black people are already found in every industry and economic strata.

3. Abortion is not illegal anywhere in the United States, as per Roe v Wade. Moreover, if the cure for cancer were actually “in the mind of someone” who got pregnant, then I fail to see how that cure gets removed from their mind as a result of pregnancy. Considering this person to be smart and educated, it seems they would be capable of having established a community of friends, family, and have gotten married, in which case she has all the support she needs to continue attending college. But sure, building a community is hard, and unprotected sex is fun, so the answer is to murder the child.

4. If someone works in the field of health, and they smoke… should they retain credibility? Similarly, why would someone be overweight if they work *in*the*field*of*health*? This is a perfectly legitimate criticism. I wouldn’t hire a personal trainer who was out of shape, smoked, and unable to do a pushup. I’m also unaware of any fat cancer researchers who were denied being able to continue their research because of how fat they were. If you know of any examples, please link me. I’d like to see that.

5. I don’t think mass starvation is a problem in the United States. For that, you want to look to China. Or the former Soviet Union. Or North Korea. Or Venezuela. Or any of the communist / socialist countries that leftist seem to love.

6. Around 20 times as many black people are killed by other blacks than are killed by the police. So go ask black people to answer that one. As for drones, I’m not sure that Americans are routinely targeted. I think it’s mostly ISIS and Al Queda on the business end of that, and the drone program reached it’s peak under Obama. I don’t know if those guys are going to cure cancer.

7. Mass shootings account for around 0.01% of all homicides. And while I don’t have data to support it, I’d say teenage boys are driven to the point of shooting because of the unending expectations put upon them by society, along with all the derogatory narratives created by feminist, not the least of which involve summing up all of his extremely real and personal problems under the guise of “he just can’t get laid”.

8. “If you wanna talk about real life actual things that prevent scientific advancement look no further than capitalism” <— ……… you are probably typing that on an HP or Dell laptop.

On Comcast internet.

Powered by General Electric.

While sitting on a couch from IKEA.

While drinking a Coke.

With indoor heating and air conditioning.

ON!!!!!! FACEBOOK!!!!!!

Say it again.

For the liberals in the back with their hands over their ears going “LALALA YOU’RE RACIST SO I’M NOT LISTENING LALALA”

Beverly Diehl

Beverly Diehl Oh, Athena. I could refute every “point” you think you’re making.

But if I did, would it change your mind?

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· 48 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Yes, it absolutely would. [And pay attention.  Here’s where I’m stating outright that I will change my mind, and also what is needed to change my mind.]

So long as your refutation is not based on subjective experience, but empirical data, facts, evidence, statistics, etc.

Just 2 years ago I was a pro-choice, far left leaning democratic socialist, Bernie supporter, and gun control advocate.

All that changed because people showed me facts and evidence. I will of course change my mind again when better evidence is shown.

Athena Brown

Athena Brown I mean point 3 I said abortion is not illegal in the US. [Whenever I  debate a leftist these days, I *always* start copy-pasting the thread to a draft gmail folder, for when the other side starts losing and of course reaches for that block button.  As such, links I posted will sometimes show up in their abbreviated format.  Sorry bout that.]

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1600&bih=791…

^ It’s right there. It’s not illegal.

Roe v Wade is the thing that makes it legal.

I’m completely uncertain how you can refute that. The actual law, right now, in the US – and i can show you the law – is that abortion is legal.

But please do go ahead and show me if I’m somehow still mistaken.

Mari Christie
Mari Christie It isn’t her mind you have to change; it’s her heart, and conservatives in America have shoved their hearts so far up their asses, they can’t even fart.

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· 43 mins

Athena Brown
Athena Brown ^ Not an argument.
Leanne Davis
Leanne Davis Athens, you are a mean-spirited bigot justifying your coming out by pretending you were shown the “truth.” [“Mean-spirited” = you disagreed with me.  Kinda like how a racist is someone who wins and argument with a leftist.]

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· 30 mins

Gulia Koroleva
Gulia Koroleva You are racist. One can be conservative and not racist. I have two of them in my family. Also, just because something is legal, it doesn’t mean it is acceptable. In many states, up to 80% of counties have no abortion providers. Unless you are previligeSee More [Yea, and sometimes I miss clicking one of the “see mores” before being blocked and the thread is gone.  But they’re of course always welcomed to continue the discussion here in the comments section, where no one gets blocked because they disagree.]

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· 26 mins

[Sweet!  Looks like someone’s actually trying to post a refutation!!  I always appreciate a good counter-argument.]
Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger 1. Cancer will never be “cured” because there are thousands of different kinds of cancers, all unique. There is no one cure. That would be like saying we could cure Virus.

2. Black people are discriminated against and if you think they are lying about their first hand experiences, what does that say about you?

3. There are countless stories of women who had to put their school and careers on hold because they had an unexpected pregnancy and kept the baby. Maybe they could’ve made medical strides. These women exist whether you like it or not and resources to allow every mom to excel in career and motherhood just don’t exist, whether you like it or not.

4. Fat people are discriminated against and again I’m not sure why you would presume them all to be lying about their own lives.

5. Hunger is a major problem for children in America. There are hungry children in every city and state here. Whether you choose to believe or acknowledge that or not.

6. Are you saying that black people are more violent and more murdery than other races?

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· 45 mins

Leanne Davis
Leanne Davis You are a gift.

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· 33 mins

Liz Sanger
Liz Sanger Thank you 💖

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· 32 mins

Liz Sanger
Liz Sanger 7. You have no data to support that. Your hypothesis is worthless. [And I agreed.  And then explained why.]

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· 44 mins

Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger 8. Small pleasures do not mean that poverty and oppression don’t abound.

Sigh. Deep breaths.

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· 44 mins

Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger I mean just when you you think you’ve heard it all…

Feminism causes school shootings

💀

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· 32 mins [Round 2]

Athena Brown

Athena Brown 1. I have confidence that technology will one day find a way to cure cancer. It was once said that going to the moon was impossible as well.

2. How do you know black people are discriminated from their choice of college? I could just as easily say, given how white people are *constantly* blamed for every bad thing that ever happened, that they could be discriminated against.

In fact at a recent job interview, the interviewer actually told me “our organization has 2 problems. We’re very white, and we’re very male” — outright stating that I have an advantage being hired as a trans person.

Now what does that say about whites being discriminated against?

……………….. absolutely nothing. My personal, anecdotal experience, is *NOT* evidence. I would need actual data showing discrimination is taking place, which I do not have.

So if you have data showing that blacks are discriminated against from attending college, then absolutely, show me that, and I’ll adjust my position accordingly.

3. Then they could get an abortion. It’s legal in the US.

But if you don’t use protection, don’t pick your partners with discretion, don’t get an abortion, don’t build a community, don’t stay in touch with your family, don’t plan financially, and don’t get married, then I’m gonna say that’s on the person.

4. Like I said in the above, please show me an instance where someone was not able to continue their cancer research because they were overweight. That will absolutely change my mind. Just show me some examples. Would be even better if you had data. “According to a study published by the CDC, 20% of cancer researchers had their papers rejected due to their weight”. Show me something like that and I’ll immediately change my position.

5. It says “starvation”, not “hungry”. And yes, that’s an issue. I’ve spent most of my adult life homeless, and I know exactly what it’s like to be hungry.

6. Here you go, page 3: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf [In case there’s any confusion, no, this does not mean black people are more “murdery”.  Statistics only tell you what’s there.  They don’t tell you *why* it’s there.  Moreover statistics like these are measuring groups, not individuals.  Each individual is a unique person, and responsible for their own choices.  So if I see a black person, I know nothing about them, and statistics like this are irrelevant.  A person is judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin – or what other people with the same color skin have done.]

The Bureau of Justice Statistics is an organization that publishes peer reviewed data from the Justice Department. Accordingly:

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Based on available data from 1980 to 2008—

 Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and off enders. Th e victimization rate for blacks (27.8 per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000). Th e off ending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000) (table 1) . [And this is why blacks, as a demographic, have more encounter with the police.  It has nothing to do with being black.  It has everything to do with personal choice.]
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7. Correct. I don’t have data to support that. In fact, I said, word for word:

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And while I don’t have data to support it
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^ But you know what else doesn’t have data?

Saying the cause is simply a “below average teen boy who couldn’t get laid”. One worthless hypothesis can overturn another worthless hypothesis (or “narrative” as they’re more accurately called).

8. The point was that capitalism prevents scientific achievement.

When you are literally surrounded by capitalism’s scientific achievement.

Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger Stop asking people to prove their own struggles with facts and numbers.

We aren’t piles of data. We are people.

We do not and should not have to prove to you that we aren’t lying.

You want spreadsheets and quantities, well I do that all day as my occupation. For freight shipments. Not people.

These are humans, flesh and blood, telling you “this is happening to me. I’m afraid. It hurts. It’s affecting my quality of life”

You say: “I’m gonna need some numbers on that.”

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· 25 mins

Rachel Gilchrist Heard

Rachel Gilchrist Heard If the nearest abortion provider is a couple/few hundred miles from you, you would need to take time off from your job/find a caregiver for your children/pay to travel and (if the state is like Utah, with a waiting period) pay not only to travel but for lodging and food, the abortion is pretty impossible.

Restrictions like these hurt the very women who need them most. Women who cannot afford health insurance or out-of-pocket costs for birth control. Women who cannot afford to take 2-3 days off work, especially if they do not have a job that provides vacation benefits.

Your privilege is showing, Athena. And it ain’t pretty. It’s mean-spirited, callous, heartless, and cold. [Winning an argument?  Your privilege is showing!”

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· 24 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown I’m not asking anyone to “prove their own struggles” with facts and numbers. [And here’s where I explain postmodernism vs empiricism … or, feelings vs facts.]

The OP is not saying “this is my own personal struggle, and this is how I handled it”. The OP is making truth statements about objective reality. For that, you need facts and evidence.

There are plenty of black folks who have it hard, and occasionally they do run into racism. I’ve also been shouted at for being white, and had people dictate to me what all of my own, very real, personal life experiences have been, all by the color of my skin. They even know how I think, how I feel, and what I want, just because of that.

But it’s another thing entirely to say “There’s an intelligently designed system created and maintained by black people / white people / that makes people do this, and is the reason for my suffering”. That’s no longer a subjective experience. It’s now an objective assertion, and it requires facts and evidence to back it up.

Think of it this way.

A Christian comes up to you and wants to tell you their real, personal experience, with Jesus Christ. You’d listen, think “Okay, that’s cool. Nice story. Thanks for sharing.”

But what if a Christian said that their experience was objectively real, and as such, *YOU* are a sinner, and *YOU* need to change the way *YOU* live right now, get on your knees, and REPENT! — Now the Christian is making objectively true statements that extend beyond the realm of their personal experience. Now they need evidence.

Does that make sense? [Also, this is precisely why my best friends are in the Republican Party and are firm bible-believers, while I’m an atheist.  They have their beliefs, and that’s 100% fine.  They’ve never once disrespected me, or told me I have to believe the same as them.  So who am I to tell them what they can or can’t believe?  Respect works both ways.  When a person starts telling me that their beliefs are objective facts that I must obey, that’s when we have a problem.]

Beverly Diehl

Beverly Diehl “Occasionally they run into racism” is almost the biggest pile of horseshit I have ever heard from any entitled white person. OCCASIONALLY? But you also get points for fat-shaming. And for seizing on the minutiae and missing the larger point, which is that many people have POTENTIAL, that they are unable to realize, because of the way our system is set up against them.

You are a perfect example, sadly, of why someone can belong to a marginalized group and still be intolerant and judgmental of others. I really wanted to dialogue with you, but evidence suggests you’re not interested in nor capable of dialogue, simply spouting propaganda. I’m sorry your worldview is so rigid – and that you swung from one rigid viewpoint to another in a short period of time doesn’t suggest flexibility, but a mind that is wired very differently from that of most people.

I truly feel sorry for you, and wish you well. [And this is the point where she blocked me.  The next post below didn’t go through, but all the post below this one were done earlier and went through just fine.]

· Reply · 5 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown Yup, because racism is real, and I never said it wasn’t. [This one didn’t go through.]

Because it’s real, you will definitely occasionally run into racism.

Now you’re denying that?

And so let me ask you — you have the choice between two personal trainers. One is obviously super fit, the other is as I described earlier. Which one would you pay to be your personal trainer, and why? I seriously want to know. And lets say they are both equally qualified.

>> I really wanted to dialogue with you, but evidence suggests you’re not interested in nor capable of dialogue

^^^ The entire chat is being saved as we speak. I’ve responded

>> to
^^^ literally
>> everything
^^^ stated

so far, and have made it clear that I will definitely change my mind if you can show me evidence to the contrary. I clearly am having a dialogue right now, and am even telling you in explicitly clear terms exactly what will change my mind. It’s natural to feel frustrated when your narrative encounters facts and evidence to the contrary and you’re not able to provide any in response, but this doesn’t mean the other person isn’t listening and talking to you.

>> I’m sorry your worldview is so rigid

^^^ “I will change my mind if you show me the evidence”

…. is now considered rigid.

Remember this the next time you’re talking to a creationist.

Unable to post comment. [And there you go.  I also get the feeling that “dialogue”, as she stated, doesn’t actually mean dialogue, where both of us are presenting our views.  It means I’m allowed to ask question, but eventually I’m supposed to end up agreeing with her faith based ideology that all black people are eternally oppressed by the whiteness of my skin, and if I don’t, well then I’m just spouting propaganda.]
Athena Brown
[The following went through as it all happened before the above.]
Liz Sanger
Liz Sanger No. You honestly don’t make any sense.

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· 18 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ What part of that did not make sense?

I believe the Christian analogy was rather simple and easy to grasp.

Rachel Gilchrist Heard

Rachel Gilchrist Heard White people do not experience racism in the US. Bigotry? Yes. Racism? It cannot happen.

Racism is systemic. It is societal. Being yelled at because you are white is not racism.

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· 14 mins

Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger Your claim that a few rude comments a handful of times in your life compares to centuries of ongoing violence from slavery to Jim Crowe to Philando are nauseating.

Tell me, when did the oppression of people of color end in the US? When did that all end? Since you apparently have good reason to doubt it still goes on.

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· 14 mins

Rachel Gilchrist Heard
Rachel Gilchrist Heard I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but our country is full of Christians that insist they are objectively right. Just as you’re doing.

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· 13 mins

Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger Going back to point 6, for which you only provided more status and no dialogue.

Are you saying that black people are more violent and murdery than other races Athena Brown?

Gulia Koroleva
Gulia Koroleva Are you a cancer researcher or biochemistry PhD. Cancer is not one disease. There over 100 cancers. There is a great book for lay people like you. I highly recommend that you read “Emperor of All Maladies”.

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· 9 mins

Beverly Diehl
Beverly Diehl I love that book! 🙂

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· 9 mins

Athena Brown

Gulia Koroleva Here is a study from an super liberal ( sarcasm) place which is Stanford on police bias against black people. https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports

SPARQ Scientists Release Oakland Police Findings | SPARQ

sparq.stanford.edu

· Reply · 6 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown ^ Right, racism requires systemic power.

Which means I could hop a plane tomorrow and land in Nigeria, then proceed to use every racial slur I could think of – and it’s not racist, because I don’t have systemic power.

We no longer have slavery or Jim Crow laws. Moreover, whites were taken as slaves on a routine basis throughout Europe all across the middle ages, from Vikings, to Slavs, to Normans, and so on. But we no longer have that system of slavery either, and it existed centuries before I was alive. Now if you can show me how the slavery then affects my life now, with some actual examples, then I’d be real interested to see that. Ditto for a black person. What can a black person, living today, *NOT* do, because slavery once existed?

>> Tell me, when did the oppression of people of color end in the US?

^^^ When Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act of 1957, and again when Republicans passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, allowing us to eventually have a black president, Barrack Obama.

And a black secretary of state. (Condi Rice)

And a black secretary of agriculture. (Mike Espy)

And a black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. (Colin Powell)

And a black United States Attorney General. (Loretta Lynch)

And a black Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. (Michael Powell)

And a black secretary of Commerce. (Ron Brown)

And a black secretary of Labor. (Alexis Herman)

And 10 states with black governors.

And numerous cities with black mayors, over 50% of which were elected by white communities.

>> I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but our country is full of Christians that insist they are objectively right. [See? She gets it when it’s other people doing it.]

^^^ Then I guess you should understand the example I provided. Using **subjective** experience as **objective** proof is absolutely what some Christians do, and you immediately see how that’s wrong.

So saying I experienced sexism, and therefore, a system of sexism is objectively real, is *the*exact*same*argument*. If it’s objectively real outside of my experience, then I can provide data to show that it’s real. My own experience does not prove objective reality in THE EXACT SAME WAY that the Christian’s subjective experience does not prove objective reality.

>> Going back to point 6, for which you only provided more status and no dialogue.

^^^ I answered you with statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Scroll up please.

· Reply · 6 mins

Athena Brown

Athena Brown >> Here is a study from an super liberal ( sarcasm) place which is Stanford on police bias against black people. https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports

^^^ Thanks, saved. And I will definitely read through it later. [And I honestly will read through it.  If there’s any truth, then I’ll adjust my view accordingly.  But remember, open minded = intolerant, so… yea.]

In May of 2014, the City of Oakland engaged SPARQ…
sparq.stanford.edu
Liz Sanger

Liz Sanger You win. [And since I wasn’t able to reply to this one, I’ll reply here.]

Racism ain’t that bad anymore. Just some rude comments. No discrimination. No violence. [Never said that.]

And if there is, well gosh darnit it happens to white people just much. Right? [There’s no way to know.  For the umpteenth time, you need DATA, and STATISTICS, to verify truth statements.]

Are you afraid for your life? [Yes.  As a Republican, I do feel threatened by Antifa.  We had an event recently where there was talk that they might try to shoot us.  Blacks Lives Matter absolutely does advocate violence against us with false narratives.  Of course this will just be scoffed at.]

Because I have friends who are currently afraid for their lives. [So do I.]

Because of their skin. [Correct.  And we can’t simply disagree, no matter how open minded our side is, because if we don’t buy into your ideology whole sale, then we’re “literally Hitler” and better off dead.  And you just will not listen, because when we try to have a discussion online, like I was trying to do here, you go straight for that block button when you run out of rhetoric.]

What say you? [I already said it.]

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Ever feel frustrated arguing with a leftist?  Trust me, the feeling is normal.